43 replies to this topic

[Killer Queen]

Incognito, on 20 May 2012 - 01:48 AM, said:

I would also like to point out that Flair is not Goldberg. He's not a legend for being unbeatable. He's a legend for his amazing promos and great matches, win or lose. Unless they purposefully pick someone who sucks, which I'm not suggesting that they do, it won't really be a slap to the face.

A couple of other guys I forgot to mention who have beaten him are Vince Russo and Jay Lethal.

Incognito, on 20 May 2012 - 01:48 AM, said:

I would also like to point out that Flair is not Goldberg. He's not a legend for being unbeatable. He's a legend for his amazing promos and great matches, win or lose. Unless they purposefully pick someone who sucks, which I'm not suggesting that they do, it won't really be a slap to the face.

A couple of other guys I forgot to mention who have beaten him are Vince Russo and Jay Lethal.

I don't disagree with him putting someone over on his way out. It's not a priority like how marks make it out to be, but it needs to be done the right way. A nobody don't deserve no rub, period. Flair jobbing to most of those guys (it made sense for him to lose to a number of the guys you listed for storyline purposes) was just poor booking, or were portrayed as upsets. The losses led to absolutely nothing, and I mean nothing, so looking back, there was no "rub", and no one was really "put over" it was just him trading victories with whoever he was feuding with in the context of the storyline (he was still active as a full time wrestler back then and all). Wrestling does upsets from time to time, but if they ever did it with a nobody being the one involved as a F*ck You before a legendary wrestler was released,then they had no class in doing so. Flair is the greatest to ever do it, so he has to be held to a certain standard. Him jobbing to a nobody who could end up as a nobody (likely a throw away episode of iMPACT or PPV is the IZ which isn't much better) could potentially be his last match, a far cry from his WM 24 match, which should of been his last match anyway

Edited by Killer Queen, 20 May 2012 - 02:28 AM.

[Incognito]

If Flair wants a great send off and storyline for his last match, well he already blew that WM 24 thing. If Flair wants an exit that is more concerned with his legacy than it is with helping make a new star, to whatever extent, he should act professional and not tarnish his OWN legacy as he has been doing lately.

I never said TNA should job him out to a nobody as a f*ck you. There'd be no point. Just if he's being unprofessional and missing shows to try and get fired, he can put over a new guy who they are planning to push anyway. I don't want them jobbing him to someone they have no confidence in. The point is not to insult Flair, but to help someone make a splash and get some attention and look like somewhat of a threat. I only mentioned them being pissed off in the sense that since he's acting that way, they should look at what would be most beneficial for one of their guys, not for Flair, since he's screwing them over anyway.

I don't know of anybody in OVW who it would be worth it to try, but I know they are giving Joey Ryan a shot, and that guy can talk and wrestle. He's not the best in the world by any means, but a win over Flair could do wonders for him, if they follow up the push in any significant way, like winning the TV title or going after Aries.


I'd prefer they let Aries beat Flair to further usher him into the main event, or have Joe destroy him to get some of his old heat back. Failing that, a new guy who they are planning to push anyway wouldn't be bad at all. Beating Flair today is not like beating Flair in 1989, or 1992, or even 2006. I don't think they need to necessarily reserve it for Bobby Roode, who won't really get any more over in the process.

[Killer Queen]

Incognito, on 20 May 2012 - 03:00 AM, said:

If Flair wants a great send off and storyline for his last match, well he already blew that WM 24 thing. If Flair wants an exit that is more concerned with his legacy than it is with helping make a new star, to whatever extent, he should act professional and not tarnish his OWN legacy as he has been doing lately.

I never said TNA should job him out to a nobody as a f*ck you. There'd be no point. Just if he's being unprofessional and missing shows to try and get fired, he can put over a new guy who they are planning to push anyway. I don't want them jobbing him to someone they have no confidence in. The point is not to insult Flair, but to help someone make a splash and get some attention and look like somewhat of a threat. I only mentioned them being pissed off in the sense that since he's acting that way, they should look at what would be most beneficial for one of their guys, not for Flair, since he's screwing them over anyway.

I don't know of anybody in OVW who it would be worth it to try, but I know they are giving Joey Ryan a shot, and that guy can talk and wrestle. He's not the best in the world by any means, but a win over Flair could do wonders for him, if they follow up the push in any significant way, like winning the TV title or going after Aries.


I'd prefer they let Aries beat Flair to further usher him into the main event, or have Joe destroy him to get some of his old heat back. Failing that, a new guy who they are planning to push anyway wouldn't be bad at all. Beating Flair today is not like beating Flair in 1989, or 1992, or even 2006. I don't think they need to necessarily reserve it for Bobby Roode, who won't really get any more over in the process.

it wouldn't happen anyway, because Flair would never agree to it, TNA would never do something that dumb, and wouldn't force him to do anything like jobbing to a no name on his way out. You can keep fantasizing though, nothing wrong with that

[Incognito]

"TNA would never do something that dumb"

Now who's fantasizing?

[Killer Queen]

Incognito, on 20 May 2012 - 03:22 AM, said:

"TNA would never do something that dumb"

Now who's fantasizing?

you

[Incognito]

Maybe they'll job him out to Garrett. Or let him have the whole "Its a waste for me to put someone over without a big storyline involved, oh and no time for a big storyline, I'm leaving...oh hey Vince, sure, I'll put over whoever you want whenever you want." Like Booker T.

I was just saying what they should do.

[Killer Queen]

Incognito, on 20 May 2012 - 03:38 AM, said:

Maybe they'll job him out to Garrett. Or let him have the whole "Its a waste for me to put someone over without a big storyline involved, oh and no time for a big storyline, I'm leaving...oh hey Vince, sure, I'll put over whoever you want whenever you want." Like Booker T.

I was just saying what they should do.

Flair is a big deal, it would be a waste if it's not a big storyline where he jobs on his way out, along with the right opponent, and by that, I don't mean some nobody who just got out of development

Edited by Killer Queen, 20 May 2012 - 03:45 AM.

[Incognito]

Joey Ryan's been wrestling twelve years. He's not fresh out of development. The bigger waste would be having Flair leave without putting over anyone.

If you want to see how big of a deal Flair is in 2012 (and he's one of my favorites, better than the guys I'm about to mention) watch what WWE does with him now. Foley and Nash thought they were still a big deal too.

[Killer Queen]

Incognito, on 20 May 2012 - 03:59 AM, said:

Joey Ryan's been wrestling twelve years. He's not fresh out of development. The bigger waste would be having Flair leave without putting over anyone.

If you want to see how big of a deal Flair is in 2012 (and he's one of my favorites, better than the guys I'm about to mention) watch what WWE does with him now. Foley and Nash thought they were still a big deal too.

to the general public, he's a nobody, and like I said already, a wrestler having to put someone over on his way out is not a priority like how the IWC makes it out to be. This is a 60 plus year old, it's not even necessary for him to have a match, LMAO

[Incognito]

To the general public, everyone is a nobody until they prove otherwise and get some publicity. Beating Ric Flair after a well delivered promo is a damn good start. I'm glad you're at least conceding that Flair is an old man and isn't too believable of a big threat to lose a match to someone who isn't a main eventer.

Putting someone over on the way out isn't a big priority, but its a lost opportunity if they don't.

[Killer Queen]

Incognito, on 20 May 2012 - 06:02 PM, said:

To the general public, everyone is a nobody until they prove otherwise and get some publicity. Beating Ric Flair after a well delivered promo is a damn good start.

LMFAO, To the general public who watches everyweek, the people presented are not considered nobodies if they are featured prominently long enough. The "start" shouldn't be a victory over Flair, that's crazy.

Incognito, on 20 May 2012 - 06:02 PM, said:

I'm glad you're at least conceding that Flair is an old man and isn't too believable of a big threat to lose a match to someone who isn't a main eventer.

No, I have been saying this entire time that a nobody from gutcheck beating Flair on his way out, which would be his retirement from TNA is ridiculous, possibly last match on the national stage considering WWE considers him retired. Flair losing to those low tier carders in the past means nothing when talking about this proposed situation. He jobbed to scrubs in the past, tell me something I didn't already know

Incognito, on 20 May 2012 - 06:02 PM, said:

Putting someone over on the way out isn't a big priority, but its a lost opportunity if they don't.

In Flair's case, against a no name gutcheck guy, completely unnecessary

[Incognito]

Its okay to be a mark for Flair, I am, but I'm sure at this point in TNA they don't have stars in their eyes over him. If they don't follow up the victory over Flair by pushing the guy, its a waste. If they do, its a hell of a significant entry for the guy. It wouldn't be his first match, that would be the gut check match itself.

In Joey Ryan's case, like I said, he's been wrestling for 12 years, he's wrestled on TV, he's beaten guys like Claudio "Antonio Cesare" Castagnoli, Chris Kanyon, Brian Kendrick, Austin Aries, Chris Hero, Paul London, Shane Helms (who has beaten Flair on Monday Night Raw) Kazarian, Chris Sabin, Alex Shelley, he's tagged with CM Punk, he's wrestled the Big Show. He's part of Ring Ka King, he was in Wrestling Society X on MTV.

He's not a big name at all but he's not a complete nobody, and its safe to say he's not going to just flash in the pan and disappear from the business in a few months, he's been dedicated for a long time.

If they don't have plans to push Joey Ryan afterwards, then by all means I agree with you, they shouldn't do it. If they do have such plans, it would be a great way to kickstart his push.

Flair shouldn't be no-showing events and screwing people over if he wants his legacy to be so protected on leaving the company that he can't lose a match to a new star. If he wants to have another big match, nobody is stopping him from going to Japan, or even having one more in TNA.

Nobody is forcing him to go back to WWE, where he won't be allowed to have any more matches. That's what HE wants.

[Killer Queen]

Incognito, on 20 May 2012 - 08:15 PM, said:

Its okay to be a mark for Flair, I am, but I'm sure at this point in TNA they don't have stars in their eyes over him. If they don't follow up the victory over Flair by pushing the guy, its a waste. If they do, its a hell of a significant entry for the guy. It wouldn't be his first match, that would be the gut check match itself.

Not a Flair mark, you have this fascination that some no name getting a victory over Flair on his way out is some great idea, but out of all possible scenarios, that's probably one of the worse.

Incognito, on 20 May 2012 - 08:15 PM, said:

In Joey Ryan's case, like I said, he's been wrestling for 12 years, he's wrestled on TV, he's beaten guys like Claudio "Antonio Cesare" Castagnoli, Chris Kanyon, Brian Kendrick, Austin Aries, Chris Hero, Paul London, Shane Helms (who has beaten Flair on Monday Night Raw) Kazarian, Chris Sabin, Alex Shelley, he's tagged with CM Punk, he's wrestled the Big Show. He's part of Ring Ka King, he was in Wrestling Society X on MTV.

all of which means next to nothing.

Incognito, on 20 May 2012 - 08:15 PM, said:

He's not a big name at all but he's not a complete nobody, and its safe to say he's not going to just flash in the pan and disappear from the business in a few months, he's been dedicated for a long time.

to casuals, he doesn't exist, hell, to me, he doesn't exist. I don't watch indy wrestling, I watch wrestling that actually airs on TV (like a casual). 12 years in the business, and all he has to tell about it is being enhancement WWE talent, and a wrestler on the indies. Only people that know this guys name is the smart mark commute, the same people that make a living bashing the mainstream.

Incognito, on 20 May 2012 - 08:15 PM, said:

If they don't have plans to push Joey Ryan afterwards, then by all means I agree with you, they shouldn't do it. If they do have such plans, it would be a great way to kickstart his push.

Flair shouldn't be no-showing events and screwing people over if he wants his legacy to be so protected on leaving the company that he can't lose a match to a new star. If he wants to have another big match, nobody is stopping him from going to Japan, or even having one more in TNA.

Nobody is forcing him to go back to WWE, where he won't be allowed to have any more matches. That's what HE wants.

He can "kickstart" his push anyway, why a no name gutcheck guy, whoever the hell it may be, having to beat Flair on his way out of TNA is so important to you is baffling. If it's such a big problem TNA has with him, he should just be released. All the personal stuff is unnecessary, if they can't book Flair with a positive mind, don't book him at all (if they really are pissed at him, and he still stays employed, then they are the real dumb asses)

Edited by Killer Queen, 20 May 2012 - 08:51 PM.

[Incognito]

Firstly, Ryan HAS wrestled on TV, he had a lot of matches, some victories, on MTV. He has wrestled plenty of times on NWA Hollywood, which is small potatoes but still televised. He's part of Ring Ka King, which is also televised, even in the United States although its based in India. All of which is basically besides the point, because that's not even the argument I'm trying to make. If he were a big star, the victory over Flair wouldn't help him become a name in the eyes of the "casuals."

I brought up all of Flair's jobbing to losers just to show that Flair has done it and its not the end of the world as you were making it out to be. If Flair wants something (in this case to be released early) let TNA get something out of it in return. Don't bury Flair or squash him to this guy, let the guy get the upset win in a fairly competitive match, and then let him capitalize on it. He's not some Alex Silva, the guy will make the most of the opportunity.

Besides, it's not a fascination for me, It was third down on my list of preferences, so try and attack the argument, not the messenger. I would prefer he put over Aries, then Joe, then this. I'm sure someone else could use the win, like Magnus or even Gunner. Hopefully it would just be Aries.

You're the one who is a lot more worried about Flair's legacy than Flair seems to be.

[Killer Queen]

Incognito, on 20 May 2012 - 09:16 PM, said:

Firstly, Ryan HAS wrestled on TV, he had a lot of matches, some victories, on MTV. He has wrestled plenty of times on NWA Hollywood, which is small potatoes but still televised. He's part of Ring Ka King, which is also televised, even in the United States although its based in India. All of which is basically besides the point

what point did you even prove?, still a nobody

Incognito, on 20 May 2012 - 09:16 PM, said:

If he were a big star, the victory over Flair wouldn't help him become a name in the eyes of the "casuals."

If he was already a "big star", he would already be a name and wouldn't need help. If someone who was already a star beats Flair, this whole "does nothing for him crap" is irrelevant. In wrestling it's about making history, putting on dream matches. Wrestling is a form of entertainment, and fans go off of what's presented to them. You think the average fan really says with stuff either like, or similar to this, "oh, this does nothing for him"???, HELL NO. It's also about making new stars obviously, but there is a time and place for it, and the gutcheck guy beating Flair on his way out wouldn't be it. TNA nor Flair would consider that as his way of going out, they would have something better lined up, like putting on a dream match, making history, giving the fans (and Flair himself) something special.

Incognito, on 20 May 2012 - 09:16 PM, said:

I brought up all of Flair's jobbing to losers just to show that Flair has done it and its not the end of the world as you were making it out to be. If Flair wants something (in this case to be released early) let TNA get something out of it in return. Don't bury Flair or squash him to this guy, let the guy get the upset win in a fairly competitive match, and then let him capitalize on it. He's not some Alex Silva, the guy will make the most of the opportunity.

Flair hasn't said publicly that he wants out, neither has TNA said that they want him out. People are assuming things (you included) because Flair is no showing house shows he is promoted on. So your words are not even valid. If TNA wanted something in return, the chances of them doing what you are suggesting are slim to none anyway. If this was a storyline for the gutcheck, which is possible seeing how Flair is a judge, but not the end of Flair's TNA run, that's completely different, but you're suggesting Flair leave like that, which would be dumb, this is Ric Flair, the greatest wrestler, that actually means something

Incognito, on 20 May 2012 - 09:16 PM, said:

Besides, it's not a fascination for me, It was third down on my list of preferences, so try and attack the argument, not the messenger. I would prefer he put over Aries, then Joe, then this. I'm sure someone else could use the win, like Magnus or even Gunner. Hopefully it would just be Aries.

You're the one who is a lot more worried about Flair's legacy than Flair seems to be.

LMFAO, you took alot of time for an apparent third option. TNA would book Flair against the big boys in reality to get whatever is left of him, nothing close to what you suggested. You can deny the fantasy, but that's what this whole thing was about

[Incognito]

Flair said, in his own words, that he wanted to be back in WWE, at the Hall of Fame. His words, not mine.

I don't care if the casual fans say "That does nothing for him." What would even be the point of that? The casual fans also wouldn't say "No way that disheveled old man could possibly lose!" So your argument isn't valid either.

I took a lot of time for the third option because that's what you kept arguing about, in an over the top way.

What are some of these "Dream Matches" out of Flair that TNA has been withholding, by the way? They didn't bother having a never-before done Hogan vs. Foley match when they had the chance. What are these dream matches Flair will be putting on at this stage, rather than putting over a new star? He's already wrestled Sting, hundreds of times. He's already wrestled Hogan, dozens of times. He's already wrestled Angle. He's already wrestled Styles. The guy is in no condition to be main eventing, and when he has, it hasn't popped ratings. What is this dream match you have in mind?

[SexyRaider]

Killer Queen, on 20 May 2012 - 10:12 PM, said:

If he was already a "big star", he would already be a name and wouldn't need help. If someone who was already a star beats Flair, this whole "does nothing for him crap" is irrelevant. In wrestling it's about making history, putting on dream matches. Wrestling is a form of entertainment, and fans go off of what's presented to them. You think the average fan really says with stuff either like, or similar to this, "oh, this does nothing for him"???, HELL NO. It's also about making new stars obviously, but there is a time and place for it, and the gutcheck guy beating Flair on his way out wouldn't be it. TNA nor Flair would consider that as his way of going out, they would have something better lined up, like putting on a dream match, making history, giving the fans (and Flair himself) something special.

This already happened, WWE did the whole dream match thing, the whole "special" thing and Flair pissed on it. Just like he's pissing on TNA right now. He might as well put someone over while he's leaving. Plus, if TNA really wanted a "big, special goodbye" to Flair it would be Flair vs Sting, and that already happened on impact, and I don't blame you if you don't remember.

[Incognito]

SexyRaider, on 20 May 2012 - 10:41 PM, said:

This already happened, WWE did the whole dream match thing, the whole "special" thing and Flair pissed on it. Just like he's pissing on TNA right now. He might as well put someone over while he's leaving. Plus, if TNA really wanted a "big, special goodbye" to Flair it would be Flair vs Sting, and that already happened on impact, and I don't blame you if you don't remember.

LMFAOROTFLCOPTER!!!!!1!!1!one1eleventy! You must be mistaken. TNA would never EVER do something like that. Marks might imagine that they did it, in their twisted, markish fantasies, but it never happened. TNA wouldn't be STUPID like that. TNA recognizes that they are not a business trying to make money, gain fans and create new stars to do both with...TNA only exists to serve as a pedestal, a glorified trophy case for the legacy of Ric Flair, until such time as he deems fit to leave them in his dust on his way back to the greener pastures of the WWE. Duh. Do you remember there even being such a thing as TNA before Flair came around? If there even was such a thing, it was just a bunch of nobodies who had no reason to exist yet.

[Incognito]

Okay, I might have laid it on a little thick there.

[Killer Queen]

SexyRaider, on 20 May 2012 - 10:41 PM, said:

This already happened, WWE did the whole dream match thing, the whole "special" thing and Flair pissed on it. Just like he's pissing on TNA right now. He might as well put someone over while he's leaving. Plus, if TNA really wanted a "big, special goodbye" to Flair it would be Flair vs Sting, and that already happened on impact, and I don't blame you if you don't remember.

Pissing on TNA how?, missing live events?, no one knows the reasons behind it. Might be personal reasons, might be that he's too tired to do the live shows (this guy is in his mid 60's, that can't be overlooked), nothing has been made public. The promotional material DOES SAY "card subject to change", and they don't need to explain anything if it does, the people are already warned before hand. I wouldn't call it pissing on TNA until more info is released. They got Flair as one of the 3 judges on gutcheck in the current storyline, he's interacting, and taking his time of day to talent who one day want success, like how he had back in his day. I don't call that pissing on TNA