74 replies to this topic

[seasiderliam]

Oh for the record Vince Russon didnt book one hour of television for tna during that period on ppv he says it in rope opera

[Zeppelin4]

404, on 16 February 2012 - 02:35 PM, said:

Imagine a situation where Russo returned to the WWE

I can see the IWC being in the biggest uproar since the CM Punk "shoot promo" but this time not in a good way. In all seriousness he would be a good pickup by WWE because they definitely need an experienced writer but would he bring in ratings... well that is more of a wait and see because you really don't know how much Russo would be limited in WWE to make much of a difference at all.

[Fenris]

Minters, on 15 February 2012 - 03:19 PM, said:

Well, look I never heard anything that either Lagana or Pritchard said about TNA. Unless they were being intensely personal about Dixie Carter ("Shes a fucking clueless bitch" etc) or other TNA employees, then I dont see an issue. As I say, we have all moaned about TNA when they have done something we dont like, The difference is that these 2 have now gotten into a position where they have the possibility to change the things they didnt like. I think thats something to be respected rather than reviled. Again, unless they were getting personal

I can't speak for Lagana aside from much of his venom was directed at the gentleman this thread is named after. Outside of that he may or may have not trashed Dixie and other employees personally. Pritchard on the other hand HAS trashed Dixie Carter using not so much the vulgarity you used but moreso the insult you used, referring to her as clueless several times while trashing talent on the roster and employees behind the scenes. Not to mention for years now taking personal digs at the founder of TNA while in and out of the WWE. I would call that getting pretty personal.

For the most part I am in agreement with you. If it were criticism of actual issues within the show as someone sees it such as the stuff Bischoff or even Heyman as i've heard them say then no, that wouldn't be a very big deal. But when it's a case of someone all "yeah Jarrett had to create this small nobody promotion because he couldn't draw and found a clueless financial backer(paraphrasing)" then... Why? Why would you turn around and offer that person a job? I wondered it with RVD, I wondered it to a point with Flair and i'm scratching my head right now that Dixie hired then promoted a loyalist to a rival promotion who has spent years trashing her company.

I suspect why Pritchard and Lagana have jobs and are running the show. Funny thing is everyones looking and pointing their finger over here at this area and some 9/11 type conspiracy out of Eric Bischoff and Hulk Hogan. Everyone seems to have forgotten the power struggle that's been going on in TNA since about late 2008.

[seasiderliam]

I wanna see Russo go to ROH

[SexyRaider]

404, on 16 February 2012 - 02:35 PM, said:

Sorry i have to jump in on this thread; Anyone that actually thinks Prichard is going to now somehow bring back the glory days of the X-division is dead wrong. He hates the division. He has said this in the past. He has gone out of his way to specifically name talent he thought were 'jobbers' and had no business wrestling at all. His first real job as VP of talent relations was to get rid of Jay Lethal, easily the most over X-division wrestler at the time.

IMO, the X-division is simply Austin Aries with a bunch of filler guys that Aries mops the floor with. That's not a division.

Shelley? Ion? Nese? Kash?

The talent in the X Division isn't as good as it used to but it's still good. Literally every cruiserweight who came out in the late 90's-mid 00's was incredible. That's why the X Division was so good. Nowadays, either TNA signs back those guys who are approaching(or already are) 30 or settle for scrubs like Sorenson. Out of the "new" cruiserweights there are some good ones like the ones I mentioned(minus Kash and Shelley who aren't new) so from what TNA has to work with the X Division could be far worse.

[Fenris]

seasiderliam, on 16 February 2012 - 06:59 PM, said:

I wanna see Russo go to ROH

I hope Russo gets an investor and helps start a new company.

[404]

SexyRaider, on 16 February 2012 - 07:09 PM, said:

Shelley? Ion? Nese? Kash?

The talent in the X Division isn't as good as it used to but it's still good. Literally every cruiserweight who came out in the late 90's-mid 00's was incredible. That's why the X Division was so good. Nowadays, either TNA signs back those guys who are approaching(or already are) 30 or settle for scrubs like Sorenson. Out of the "new" cruiserweights there are some good ones like the ones I mentioned(minus Kash and Shelley who aren't new) so from what TNA has to work with the X Division could be far worse.

Sorry, Shelley is a tag team guy. He is great but together, the guns are amazing. That's gotta be the main focus on everyones mind, including creative.

Ion, Neese, Kash.. I'm sorry, those guys haven't proven that they can carry a storyline let alone know where the hard camera is. They aren't even remotely in the same league as Aries. Not even close. Kash in particular, that guy is over 40, been in and out of TNA two times already and still doesn't "get it". Even Jay Lethal, Sonjay Dutt and Sharkboy, who most people complained had terrible gimmicks etc were light-years ahead of the guys you mentioned above in terms of wrestling ability, storytelling, charisma etc. These three guys were essentially the focal point of an era in the X-division where many people said it started to "suck". Yet, those guys looked like major stars compared to the current breed of x-division guys.

As i already mentioned, Prichard held nothing back during his podcast days when it came to the X-division and its talent. I think anyone that listens to the podcasts can easily assume that if he had it his way, Prichard would wipe the division out of TNA.

[Minters]

404, on 16 February 2012 - 02:35 PM, said:

This is one i really need to get into, It's one of my pet peeves when I hear people talk about Ring Ka King. I don't want this to sound like i'm criticizing anyone on the RKK production side but I feel that anyone with wrestling production experience can book Ring Ka King. The product is drastically toned down for a reason, it's because the target demographic, The Indian population have not been exposed to this kind of product in the past. They don't have years of exposure to wrestling. You can't possibly expect such a large, rather oblivious audience to understand modern day wrestling. This has very little to do with knowing your target audience as much as it is common sense. If someone who has never seen or heard of pro wrestling before approaches you and asks you "What is pro wrestling?", you probably would explain it to them in the simplest form you possibly could so they can understand it.

Ring Ka King in my opinion needs to slow down even more, especially in the ring. you can't possibly expect people to understand some of the finishers and most importantly, some of the counters they use. Ring Ka King is clearly based off of wrestling from the 70's and 80's; Bad gimmicks and all. I'm not evey saying this in a bad or disparraging way. I've watched the product and i have, for the most part, enjoyed it.

Ok I can accept that argument, but let me throw you a counter argument. Sure, the audiences in India are seeing a new wrestling show on their televsion, but to the extent of my knowledge, they also have access to the WWE shows. I know for a fact that they have a local office located in Mumbai, so its not as if wrestling is a brand new concept to the country. So there will be some seasoned wrestling fans that are watching this show along with complete newcomers to this type of show. The fact is that Dave Lagana, along with his cohorts, managed to write shows that were simplistic, introduced all the characters, but still managed to be entertaining to the people that have been watching wrestling for years. I am referring to the people on here of course, but Im also referring to Ring Ka Kings high ratings. It cant be all brand new viewers.

You say that he wrote a show so simplistic that any fan with a passing interest in the business could have done it, but Id like to make a comparison to childrens authors. Im sure many of us have thought at some point that we could write a childrens book. Not difficult right, just give them some bright colours and some animals right? But you often hear of childrens book authors warning people about writing books for children and that it may not be as easy as they might think, as children arent stupid and dont like to be treated as such. Sure, some of the audience in India may be new to this particular brand of entertainment, so you have to book it simply, but they wouldnt still be watching if they felt it was badly written or childish.

404, on 16 February 2012 - 02:35 PM, said:

You would be smart to realize that some fans do take those kinds of comments seriously. It's no different from people slagging off rival sport teams.

Oh I do. I have always happened to be mostly non-partisan about sports though, preferring just to enjoy the sport as a whole, rather than one specific team or individual. I didnt say others had to believe as I do, I simply stated my own position.

404, on 16 February 2012 - 02:35 PM, said:

I'm not here to defend Russo or take jabs at any body else but, In my opinion, the timing of this kind of release couldn't have come at a worse time for TNA. Smart business also involves knowing at what time to release talent you deem not worthy so that it leaves as little of an impact (no pun intended) on your product and doesn't benefit rivals. Most everything on Western television, especially in the US and UK is essentially CrashTV. I'll go as far as to say that I'm convinced much of the television produced lately borrows from the CrashTV wrestling format. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if we see Ruso either back in the WWE or helping produce some sort of high level television show. Right now the WWE is basically bleeding ratings and its been clear from the last month or so that they are trying to push the evenelope so to speak on what they can do on television while keeping a PG designation.

Lagana easily has writer credits on one of the most pretigious network television shows in the history of the US; Friends. Yet, following his WWE run, he jumped to ROH. Again, i'm not here to take jabs at Lagana or ROH but if I had that kind of writer credit, even if it was writing just one episode, the last thing on my mind would be attempting to get a job at ROH.

Imagine a situation where Russo returned to the WWE and actually improved ratings while TNA's ratings either stayed the same or went down. No matter how you paint that picture, it would be a major blow to TNA.

Im not familiar with the term "CrashTV" so I wont respond to that particular part of what you said.

Id like to make it clear that Im also not out to bash Vince Russo. I think Ive stated on a number of occasions that I do not know the man, I do not know what particular angles he is responsible for and I do not know what his entire job entails. The only angles Ive associated with Russo were the ones where he appeared on screen as a representative. I didnt get WCW Nitro in the UK, so I never saw anything he did there. The only angle Ive seen in TNA where he was an onscreen character was the S.E.X. invasion which I really wasnt a fan of. Now I know seasiderliam said above that Russo claimed no writing responsibility for that angle, but as the entire angle was about Russos style of writing and wrestling versus the more traditional style of wrestling where what happened in the ring was the most important thing, its hard not to tie him to it. Other than this, I have never solely blamed him for any angle that I have deemed as poor.

On the subject of him jumping to ROH, I think youre being perhaps a tad unfair. Consider Mick Foley: He was being paid well as a commentator for the WWE and would probably have had a job for life had he stayed. However he jumped over to TNA because they offered him the chance to perform in-ring again and because he didnt enjoy working on commentary with Vince McMahon constantly in his ear. I can only speculate at his paycheck, but Im willing to bet that it was less money.

Now lets apply this to Dave Lagana: Sure he had a decent job with the WWE and had a writing credit on one of the most popular TV shows of all time. Sure, he was probably on a lot of money. However money isnt always a factor in situations such as this. Ive taken a job in the past that was less money than the previous job, simply because I was given more control over my day to day activities. I am again speculating here, but Im willing to bet that ROH was willing to offer him a lot more creative freedom than the WWE was. Freedom is a very strong motivator to people who work in creative industries. When he jumped over to TNA, Im sure that the money played a factor, but as stated in another post on this site he was given the title "Creative Director" when he came in. Thats a very enticing title for somebody in a creative industry! Also remember that he would be given the opportunity to work with a long time friend in Bruce Pritchard again. Long story short: There is more to employment than money and prestige.

Edited by Minters, 16 February 2012 - 11:28 PM.

[ILWyep]

404, on 16 February 2012 - 02:35 PM, said:

Sorry i have to jump in on this thread; Anyone that actually thinks Prichard is going to now somehow bring back the glory days of the X-division is dead wrong. He hates the division. He has said this in the past. He has gone out of his way to specifically name talent he thought were 'jobbers' and had no business wrestling at all. His first real job as VP of talent relations was to get rid of Jay Lethal, easily the most over X-division wrestler at the time.

IMO, the X-division is simply Austin Aries with a bunch of filler guys that Aries mops the floor with. That's not a division.

Who gives a f*ck? Seriously. Because what we have right now in that "pseudo" X Division is... good. And entertaining. We have a great champion (I don't remember saying that about X Division champ since 2006. Maybe 05.) and good to great PPV matches every month.

It's better than Lethal's clusterfuck adventures in 2008, it's better than Robbie E's run in 2010 (thanks to Russo for the gimmick, which I love, but giving him the X Division run was absolutely retarded), it's better than Sabin's Jackass shit in 2006, it's better than whatever the hell was happening in 2007 (I dont even remember), the list goes on.

I don't care if Prichard is a liar, coward, rapist, etc. I don't give a f*ck. If I like/love what I see on my TV, I'm gonna thank TNA's booking/creative team for that. And that includes Prichard right now.

[Minters]

Id care if he was a rapist.

[404]

Minters, on 16 February 2012 - 11:02 PM, said:

Ok I can accept that argument, but let me throw you a counter argument. Sure, the audiences in India are seeing a new wrestling show on their televsion, but to the extent of my knowledge, they also have access to the WWE shows. I know for a fact that they have a local office located in Mumbai, so its not as if wrestling is a brand new concept to the country. So there will be some seasoned wrestling fans that are watching this show along with complete newcomers to this type of show. The fact is that Dave Lagana, along with his cohorts, managed to write shows that were simplistic, introduced all the characters, but still managed to be entertaining to the people that have been watching wrestling for years. I am referring to the people on here of course, but Im also referring to Ring Ka Kings high ratings. It cant be all brand new viewers.

WWE and TNA air on Indian television. On premium cable. Consider the median income rate of the country and nearly everyone is still watching free, over the air television. This isn't the first time wrestling has been (attempted to be) shown on a national scale. This is however the most successful attempt and the largest of its kind for the country. You can clearly see in the audience reaction that many of them don't have a clue about wrestling.

Minters, on 16 February 2012 - 11:02 PM, said:

Im not familiar with the term "CrashTV" so I wont respond to that particular part of what you said.

Car Crash TV

Minters, on 16 February 2012 - 11:02 PM, said:

On the subject of him jumping to ROH, I think youre being perhaps a tad unfair. Consider Mick Foley: He was being paid well as a commentator for the WWE and would probably have had a job for life had he stayed. However he jumped over to TNA because they offered him the chance to perform in-ring again and because he didnt enjoy working on commentary with Vince McMahon constantly in his ear. I can only speculate at his paycheck, but Im willing to bet that it was less money.

Now lets apply this to Dave Lagana: Sure he had a decent job with the WWE and had a writing credit on one of the most popular TV shows of all time. Sure, he was probably on a lot of money. However money isnt always a factor in situations such as this. Ive taken a job in the past that was less money than the previous job, simply because I was given more control over my day to day activities. I am again speculating here, but Im willing to bet that ROH was willing to offer him a lot more creative freedom than the WWE was. Freedom is a very strong motivator to people who work in creative industries. When he jumped over to TNA, Im sure that the money played a factor, but as stated in another post on this site he was given the title "Creative Director" when he came in. Thats a very enticing title for somebody in a creative industry! Also remember that he would be given the opportunity to work with a long time friend in Bruce Pritchard again. Long story short: There is more to employment than money and prestige.

No disrespect to ROH but they have nothing to offer that others already don't. If you apply your mentality to this then there's nothing that would have stopped him from joining pro wrestling guerrilla or chikara. TNA offered Foley something the WWE wasn't offering him at the time, a chance to wrestle again. Big difference

ILWyep, on 16 February 2012 - 11:46 PM, said:

Who gives a f*ck? Seriously. Because what we have right now in that "pseudo" X Division is... good. And entertaining. We have a great champion (I don't remember saying that about X Division champ since 2006. Maybe 05.) and good to great PPV matches every month.

It's better than Lethal's clusterfuck adventures in 2008, it's better than Robbie E's run in 2010 (thanks to Russo for the gimmick, which I love, but giving him the X Division run was absolutely retarded), it's better than Sabin's Jackass shit in 2006, it's better than whatever the hell was happening in 2007 (I dont even remember), the list goes on.

I don't care if Prichard is a liar, coward, rapist, etc. I don't give a f*ck. If I like/love what I see on my TV, I'm gonna thank TNA's booking/creative team for that. And that includes Prichard right now.

Aries is the only thing entertaining about the X-division. That's not a division at all. I would rather see Jay Lethal's "clusterfuck adventures" than to see some vanilla guys get their ass beat week after week by going through the Aries conveyor belt. And no, i don't give a crap about Robbie E, didn't care about him with the X-division title and don't care about him with the TV title. Obviously someone in creative still has zero problems with Robbie E's current spot because it hasn't changed at all.

[Minters]

404, on 17 February 2012 - 12:32 AM, said:

No disrespect to ROH but they have nothing to offer that others already don't. If you apply your mentality to this then there's nothing that would have stopped him from joining pro wrestling guerrilla or chikara. TNA offered Foley something the WWE wasn't offering him at the time, a chance to wrestle again. Big difference

I wasnt necessarily referring to the differences between ROH and WWE as companies, but rather the role that he was filling. At WWE he would just be another cog in the machine. A cog that has to have every single thing he does approved by Vince McMahon. Some people dont mind working in a highly constrictive environment as just another part of the team. Other people want a bit more control over what they do and not to have everything they do second guessed.

Also, be fair; theres a difference between a wage you can live on and one that needs you to go out and get a 2nd job.

[ILWyep]

404, on 17 February 2012 - 12:32 AM, said:

Aries is the only thing entertaining about the X-division. That's not a division at all. I would rather see Jay Lethal's "clusterfuck adventures" than to see some vanilla guys get their ass beat week after week by going through the Aries conveyor belt. And no, i don't give a crap about Robbie E, didn't care about him with the X-division title and don't care about him with the TV title. Obviously someone in creative still has zero problems with Robbie E's current spot because it hasn't changed at all.

That's the story. He's a dominant champ. If Lethal Vs 3D for The X Division title is your cup of tea... Alrighty then. To each their own.

Robbie E is an alright champion. No need to be serious about this title when they have World title and the X title.

[Girlgamer25]

ILWyep, on 17 February 2012 - 01:44 AM, said:

That's the story. He's a dominant champ. If Lethal Vs 3D for The X Division title is your cup of tea... Alrighty then. To each their own.

Robbie E is an alright champion. No need to be serious about this title when they have World title and the X title.

Also add to the fact that Aries is also getting slowly build for the heavyweight division and the him being the dominant champion in the X Division is a good start for him. Can't wait until he starts feuding with AJ and Angle that should be epic. Agreed because Aries dominant X Division Champion > cartoon gimmicks that had clusterfuck adventures from 2007 to June 2009. I'm sorry but I'm enjoying Aries as the dominant champion.

[404]

Minters, on 17 February 2012 - 01:37 AM, said:

I wasnt necessarily referring to the differences between ROH and WWE as companies, but rather the role that he was filling. At WWE he would just be another cog in the machine. A cog that has to have every single thing he does approved by Vince McMahon. Some people dont mind working in a highly constrictive environment as just another part of the team. Other people want a bit more control over what they do and not to have everything they do second guessed.

Also, be fair; theres a difference between a wage you can live on and one that needs you to go out and get a 2nd job.

I'm sure Lagana had his reasons but generally people want to move up in their respective fields; Fired or not. That's just common sense.

ILWyep, on 17 February 2012 - 01:44 AM, said:

That's the story. He's a dominant champ. If Lethal Vs 3D for The X Division title is your cup of tea... Alrighty then. To each their own.

Robbie E is an alright champion. No need to be serious about this title when they have World title and the X title.

"Dominant Champ" is all in the eye of the beholder. Some like him, some hate him. That's besides the point. Regardless, the current creative team must think the same way Russo does about him and the lack of importance the TV title has because things in that field are exactly the same as when Russo was there.